The Healthy Back Institute Forum » Forum: Prolotherapy

The Healthy Back Institute Forum » Forum: Prolotherapy - Recent Posts http://www.losethebackpain.com/forum/forum/prolotherapy The Web's Best Back Pain Forum en-US Mon, 20 May 2013 16:17:51 +0000 http://bbpress.org/?v=1.0.2 <![CDATA[Search]]> q http://www.losethebackpain.com/forum/search.php Peter on "Ambassdor" http://www.losethebackpain.com/forum/topic/ambassdor#post-147544 Sun, 25 Nov 2012 13:55:48 +0000 Peter 147544@http://www.losethebackpain.com/forum/ Hi there, all healthy back institute forum users, has any body out had or experienced the beneficial effects or otherwise of prolotherapy injections. I am very seriously thinking of travelling from scotland to u.s.a, to get treatment from Dr. R. Hauser, of Caringmedical.com. Can anybody please help me with their experiences. This is a genuine post. Many thanks, good luck to all, ambassador. Steve on "Inversion Therapy and Prolotherapy" http://www.losethebackpain.com/forum/topic/inversion-therapy-and-prolotherapy#post-61505 Wed, 04 Jan 2012 14:03:10 +0000 Steve 61505@http://www.losethebackpain.com/forum/ Ricky, Please I highly suggest that you ask those questions of your physician who giving you the prolotherapy treatment. Steve Ricky on "Inversion Therapy and Prolotherapy" http://www.losethebackpain.com/forum/topic/inversion-therapy-and-prolotherapy#post-61435 Wed, 04 Jan 2012 03:47:29 +0000 Ricky 61435@http://www.losethebackpain.com/forum/ yannick and guys... I'm having chronic knee pain...so I have done my first treatment of prolotherapy on my knee...... Can I continue to use inversion therapy immediately after two or three days after the prolotherapy treatment? Will inversion therapy loosen my ligament/tendon on my knee and render the prolotherapy treatment ineffective? Hope someone can tell me. HealthyBack on "Inversion Therapy and Prolotherapy" http://www.losethebackpain.com/forum/topic/inversion-therapy-and-prolotherapy#post-151 Fri, 02 Jul 2010 12:23:14 +0000 HealthyBack 151@http://www.losethebackpain.com/forum/ *PREVIOUS POST* yannick Apr 10, 2009 - 8:52PM Quote Reply What happens when i finish my inversion therapy I have seen many forums and articles on inversion therapy, saying that has soon has you get off the table your lower back and disc start compressing again. And that the inversion table can be used has a band aid of some type to remove the pain for a short period of time. Now i am really serious about my back pain rehab, i have had up to date 12 prolotherapy treatments and am amazed of how well its going, i have an MRI showing L4L5 and L5S1 discopathy with light loss of signal but no degeneration and no hernia or bulge. My medical doctor says that at 36 i am to young to have this and its possible to rehydrate the discs. I have since been on a serious glucosamine, MSM, chronotitide, EFA complex and collagen complex, drinking a lot of water, doing core training, eating a very good diet, and doing inversion therapy 20 minutes per day, now i do it after weight training too, and using an infra red sauna. I have seen a study of a 56 year old man and glucosamine intake for 2 years with great result on disc rehydration. I have also done 12 treatments of pulse signal therapy and 9 spineforce treatment. I plan to get a second MRI next year. But i would really love to know if inversion therapy has any benefits to rehydrate the disc and to keep them healty. Since i quit the chiro i have had no lower back spasm that has been a year now. ______________________________________________________________________________________ Jesse Cannone Apr 10, 2009 - 10:20PM Quote Reply Re: What happens when i finish my inversion therapy Thanks for sharing your story. The way to optimize the effects of inversion is to combine it with Muscle Balance Therapy, which we teach in our LTBP system. You should perform various stretches (specific to your body and imbalances) right before and right after inversion to allow for the most decompression during and to maintain as much after you complete your session... Some of these stretches would likely include lower back, lats, abdomen, QL and again others that are more specific to you. Hope this helps :) Jesse ______________________________________________________________________________________ yannick Apr 11, 2009 - 12:02AM Quote Reply Re: What happens when i finish my inversion therapy Sorry Jesse but i already have the LBP program and it did not work for me. When you have lax ligaments the only thing that will work is prolotherapy. I did LBP for 6 months without any improvement, after all the ligaments and tendons are very important in the body because they hold everything together, some dumb sport medecine told me that they are useless and training the muscles around the ligaments and tendons will take there place, wonder where that idiot got is diplomat. So basically that doesn't answer my question. Quit sad if you look at it this way to say i payed 100$ for this and it did nothing. ______________________________________________________________________________________ awaq Apr 11, 2009 - 4:31PM Quote Reply Re: What happens when i finish my inversion therapy No bulging or herniation or other disc damage at 36? That is great! I have read many people's L5 is degenerated by 20! To analyze your questions: Your back rehydrates when you sleep. So what is the difference between lying down and decompression? Which ligaments got strained? How did this happen? Have you ever heard the term "myoelectric quiescence" of muscles? It's interesting how Rene Cailliet in 1981 was against engaging the back extensors when lifting an object. He considered it faulty lifting to maintain the natural ach in the lower back: "the lordosis is regained before the pelvis is derotated. Thus there is all the stress of hyperextension as in the static lordotic posture plus the extra extensor muscle contraction to maintain this cantilevered position." He preferred lumbar-pelvic rhythm: "Normally, the lumbar spine is supported by the supraspinous ligaments when in full flexion to extension until that last 45 degrees. The reextension to full erect posture is done by pelvic derotation. For the last 45 degrees of extension, the erector spinae muscles straighten the spine and regain the lordosis". Have you even seen an Olympic weightlifter lift like this? Do you know what would happen if you did not engage the muscles but relied solely on the passive tissues as Cailliet suggests? Cailliet disagrees with Yuri Spinov etc: "In faulty reextension in which the lordosis is regained prematurely with the upper body ahead of the center of gravity, this inefficient erector spinae muscle acting upon the lumbar spine is made to support the body and perform further extension. THIS RESULTS IN PAINFUL MUSCULAR CONTRACTION." So he thought engaging the muscles caused pain and the solution was to reply solely on the passive tissue (ligaments). This was done by fully flexing the spine when performing a lift. In other words: "myoelectric quiescence" of muscles ______________________________________________________________________________________ yannick Apr 11, 2009 - 7:41PM Quote Reply Re: What happens when i finish my inversion therapy Thanks awaq on another back pain forum i have read that they performed a study a while back they took a certain amount of people with no pain at all, back pain and gave them MRI, they where surprised to find that 80% of them had hernia either L4L5 or L5S1 yet they continued active lives? I did not know that most people have compete degenerated L5 in there 20, what i have been told is that its not normal for a 36 year old person to have dehydration in the disc, that this usually happens at the age of 50 plus years old. My MRI is not so bad i plan to get another one soon to see if all i have been doing did some positive. I still have some prolo treatments left and trigger point injection has well. I decided to stop squatting and deadlifting i just dont like the feeling it gives me in the lower back when i am finish with the lift and it also puts pressure on my neck which i dont like. I just bought myself a BOSU ball for core training so far its been quit amazing, i feel this reflects a lot what the spine force machine does, and i also bought my hack squat, leg press machine. ______________________________________________________________________________________ Jeff Apr 11, 2009 - 9:18PM Quote Reply Re: What happens when i finish my inversion therapy If your getting Prolotherapy treatments and doing full inversion you would be defeating the purpose of prolotherapy which as you know is to over time strengthen/tighten the Ligament and or tendons......My Prolotherapist suggested 3/4 Inversion at the most, but to wait at least 1-2 weeks after injections to do so when I was getting Injections in my sacrum area. When I got my shoulder done I made the mistake of overstretching too soon and the prolotherapy wasnt working.....once I started to lay off the stretching it worked like magic......From what I read it could take up to a year before the actual Ligament/Tendon regains full strength.....When I get Prolotherapy I dont do anything for the first 3 days...then I start in with some light exercise for the invloved area and maybe some very very light stretching and just keep increasing the exercise as my body lets me....Usually by the 3rd week Im increasing any strength work at a good pace.....but if your need another serious of injections again you start all over..............I found what worked best for my shoulders were a serious of 3 sessions about 3 weeks apart..........after that I felt my shoulder back at full strength after about 6-8 weeks....during that 6-8 weeks was some serious strengthening exercises with the Therabands and dumbbells every other day......My injury was a separated shoulder which the whole year before I did PT stuff that never helped...So right there shows Prolotherapy does work in certain cases....Very hard with the back since its such a complex area......the shoulder was simple since the Doc knew exactly what ligaments were the problem....Nothings easy thats for sure. ______________________________________________________________________________________ awaq Apr 12, 2009 - 12:28PM Quote Reply Re: What happens when i finish my inversion therapy Yannick, I would say the difference between lying down and inversion is the muscle relaxation. Muscle guarding to protect the discs never lets the discs imbibe their nutritive fluid and stay healthy. Even after 8 hours sleeping, you loose 90% of the fluid in 1 hour. So the benefit of inversion IMHO is to get the deep core muscles to relax. Child's Pose is for the back extensors and Cobra is for the abs but on decompression gets the deep muscles right at the spine. Once you get these muscles to relax the disc can rehydrate. As Jeff said, pulling hard on the back will only stretch the ligaments and is self-defeating. Just hard enough to get the muscles to let go and you are 90% of the way there. Walking is also great for disc health as the switching from leg to leg "pumps" the discs allowing fluid to go in and out. Fluid transfer from pressure differential is how the discs get their nourishment. My point about the ligaments is they only get loose when there is no muscle activity. Then all the stress goes to the ligament and it gets stretched. This can happen when you round the back at L5 - as you noticed-. The back extensors shut off and the ligaments are taking all the stress. They stretch as you found. So your ligament laxity IMHO is either: 1) from the back getting out of alignment so the muscles aren't activating and all the stress is going into the ligaments.. 2) Muscle imbalance so the back is shifting from a straight position. ______________________________________________________________________________________ awaq Apr 12, 2009 - 12:33PM Quote Reply Re: What happens when i finish my inversion therapy Yannick no reason to take glucosamin pills. "taking either product every day as a supplement is really missing the big picture by not answering the question, "why are you not making it in the first place?" If you are healthy, your body makes all that stuff, in great quantities, on it own. Read this: http://www.drgangemi.com/articles/break_injury_cycle When it comes to repairing an injury, or making sure an injury doesn't surprise you tomorrow, the most important chemical process pertinent is that of sulfation. Once you hear that word, and you've understood the part about glucose, you may be starting to put these two together by thinking of the supplements "glucosamine sulfate and chondroitin sulfate". Chondroitin sulfate is the substance made naturally in your body when dealing with the production of cartilage. Glucosamine is an intermediate step along this production pathway, whose main goal is to make chondroitin sulfate. If this step is blocked along the way at any point, then the chondroitin sulfate won't be made and you won't be making any heads turn with your suboptimal performance. The point here is not to supplement with either of these products. It is to figure out how to make it on your own, every day, naturally. Supplementing with either glucosamine or chondroitin is usually a good idea following an injury, but taking some every day will not prevent most injuries. Additionally, taking either product every day as a supplement is really missing the big picture by not answering the question, "why are you not making it in the first place?" ______________________________________________________________________________________ yannick Apr 12, 2009 - 8:06PM Quote Reply Re: What happens when i finish my inversion therapy Quote: Originally Posted by Jeff If your getting Prolotherapy treatments and doing full inversion you would be defeating the purpose of prolotherapy which as you know is to over time strengthen/tighten the Ligament and or tendons......My Prolotherapist suggested 3/4 Inversion at the most, but to wait at least 1-2 weeks after injections to do so when I was getting Injections in my sacrum area. When I got my shoulder done I made the mistake of overstretching too soon and the prolotherapy wasnt working.....once I started to lay off the stretching it worked like magic......From what I read it could take up to a year before the actual Ligament/Tendon regains full strength.....When I get Prolotherapy I dont do anything for the first 3 days...then I start in with some light exercise for the invloved area and maybe some very very light stretching and just keep increasing the exercise as my body lets me....Usually by the 3rd week Im increasing any strength work at a good pace.....but if your need another serious of injections again you start all over..............I found what worked best for my shoulders were a serious of 3 sessions about 3 weeks apart..........after that I felt my shoulder back at full strength after about 6-8 weeks....during that 6-8 weeks was some serious strengthening exercises with the Therabands and dumbbells every other day......My injury was a separated shoulder which the whole year before I did PT stuff that never helped...So right there shows Prolotherapy does work in certain cases....Very hard with the back since its such a complex area......the shoulder was simple since the Doc knew exactly what ligaments were the problem....Nothings easy thats for sure. Glad to see that someone had prolo done on them, yes prolo is amazing, and no i do not do full inversion i do only 60 degree inversion i asked the doctor that gives me prolo and he said it was fine. I know that prolo takes a long time been having it for 6 months now like you every 3 weeks and same has you i cannot do anything for 3 days after the injection since it hurts like hell and my lower and upper back is slowlen, still its the best thing that ever happened to me and i feel that with prolo i have a fighting chance. ______________________________________________________________________________________ yannick Apr 12, 2009 - 8:15PM Quote Reply Re: What happens when i finish my inversion therapy Quote: Originally Posted by awaq Yannick no reason to take glucosamin pills. "taking either product every day as a supplement is really missing the big picture by not answering the question, "why are you not making it in the first place?" If you are healthy, your body makes all that stuff, in great quantities, on it own. Read this: http://www.drgangemi.com/articles/break_injury_cycle When it comes to repairing an injury, or making sure an injury doesn't surprise you tomorrow, the most important chemical process pertinent is that of sulfation. Once you hear that word, and you've understood the part about glucose, you may be starting to put these two together by thinking of the supplements "glucosamine sulfate and chondroitin sulfate". Chondroitin sulfate is the substance made naturally in your body when dealing with the production of cartilage. Glucosamine is an intermediate step along this production pathway, whose main goal is to make chondroitin sulfate. If this step is blocked along the way at any point, then the chondroitin sulfate won't be made and you won't be making any heads turn with your suboptimal performance. The point here is not to supplement with either of these products. It is to figure out how to make it on your own, every day, naturally. Supplementing with either glucosamine or chondroitin is usually a good idea following an injury, but taking some every day will not prevent most injuries. Additionally, taking either product every day as a supplement is really missing the big picture by not answering the question, "why are you not making it in the first place?" awaq thanks for the replies but for this i rather stay with my medical doctor advise and take glucosamine complexe each day. At some point when you get older i will be 37 in June the body really slows down and i would be very surpised if it made its own glucosamine. Has far has the rehydration i guess i still have a fighting chance because yeah when i got my MRI my lower back muscles where really really tight i was seeing a chiro that was really dumb and each time i saw him it got worst. I was able true exercices like the cobra and child pose has you mentionned and many more yoga exercises and stretches to really remove that spams in the lower back and have been a year without any major back spams. I do walk a lot and have bough myself the BOSU ball which i find amazing. I stopped squatting and deadlifting because they put way to much pressure on my upper back and lower back and i really really really dont want to get hurt again, this weekend i bought a leg press hack squat machine, i tried it and it was really good, my lower back never left the machine and i tried it with 6 plates 3 on each sides so with this i will be able to build good leg muscles without fear of injury. Once again thanks you both Jeff and Awaq for your great replies. ______________________________________________________________________________________ yannick Apr 13, 2009 - 10:07AM Quote Reply Re: What happens when i finish my inversion therapy BTW my pelvic kept getting out of alignement all the time before i got prolotherapy, wasted a year and a half at the stupid chiro theses guys are full of crap. After 3 months of prolo my pelvic stays in place now, i still have some pain but its far better then it was, same thing has with my neck region. Prolo is just amazing and i am bless that i found someone in my area that does it since this technic is virtually unknown. ______________________________________________________________________________________ awaq Apr 13, 2009 - 12:50PM Quote Reply Re: What happens when i finish my inversion therapy Which ligaments where loose? ______________________________________________________________________________________ yannick Apr 13, 2009 - 5:46PM Quote Reply Re: What happens when i finish my inversion therapy Quote: Originally Posted by awaq Which ligaments where loose? Sorry Awaq guess i need to provide some feedback on myself. I actually injured myself doing squats and deadlifts 8 years ago, i was doing them with enormous weight and very bad forms, squat was at 405 pounds and deads where at 315 pounds. I guess i was lucky since its the ligament that gave and not the discs of the spine also my neck took a pounding has well from all the weight of the bar doing squats and i was also doing standing militry press, now after 8 years of going to see many chiros who suck and other profession i found my current medical sport doctor. I started prolotherapy on September 17th of 2008 and have had since then 12 treatments, i can lift weights again, i started doing squats and deadlifts again last week but i guess i just cant do them anymore my neck and upper back wont take it anymore. This is my current training i do Vince Gironda 8 X 8 taking 30 seconds between sets and my weights are moderate. DAY 1 Chest Decline low cable crossover (touch hands at waistline) 8 X 8 Bench press to neck 8 X 8 Incline Dumbbell Press (palms facing each other) 8 X 8 Wide Grip V-Bar Dips 8 X 8 Biceps Drag Curl 8 X 8 Preacher curl (top of bench at low pec line) 8 X 8 Incline Dumbbell Curl 8 X 8 Forearms Zottman Curl 8 X 8 Barbell Wrist Curl 8 X 8 DAY 2 Shoulders Dumbbell Side Lateral raise seated 8 X 8 Wide Grip upright row 8 X 8 Front to back barbell shoulder press 8 X 8 Dumbbell bent over rear deltoid lateral 8 X 8 Triceps Kneeling rope extension 8 X 8 Lying Tricep Extension 8 X 8 2 Dumbbell Tricep Kickback 8 X 8 DAY 3 Back Sternum Chin up 8 X 8 High bench two dumbbell rowing 8 X 8 Low cable row with 18" high pulley 8 X 8 Medium Grip Lat Pulldown to Chest 8 X 8 DAY 4 Quads leg press 8 X 8 Hack machine squat 8 X 8 Leg Extension 8 X 8 Hamstrings Seated leg Curl machine 8 X 8 That is a lot of work but man it keeps the fat off can be very cardio if done well and build muscle like crazy too, also its done in 45 minutes so i don't over train and i have a healthy diet that goes with this. So some SI joints are still a bit loose i have a snapping hip joint has well and in the upper back and neck region so i get prolo done in all of theses places, Jeff thank you very much i guess that i have another 6 months of prolo every 3 weeks and i will be 100%. ______________________________________________________________________________________ yannick Apr 13, 2009 - 7:32PM Quote Reply Re: What happens when i finish my inversion therapy Jeff once again thanks for the feedback on prolo i know now that i have to be patient and that it will take a full year for me and even more to get 100%, my sport doctor usually gives me a bit more irritant depending on the sessions, usually dextrose and xylocaine with some zeel anywhere from 4cc to 6cc. Last time i saw him 2 weeks ago i didnt say nothing about my weight training, i need to ask him next time, also about the inversion table, i do not do a full inversion, i always invert at 60 degrees, last time he told me it was fine? You made some good point and i feel i need to tell him about inversion and weight training. Thanks again Jeff ______________________________________________________________________________________ awaq Apr 13, 2009 - 7:53PM Quote Reply Re: What happens when i finish my inversion therapy Yannick, that is a good workout. Cardio will build the ligaments. I have the same problem as you. A few years back hack squats with 3 wheels was great but squats and deads were too much. I don't have access to prolo but I hope that by holding good posture and strengthening the muscles (which weren't engaging to protect L5 - not "the lower back" - but L5) the ligaments will tighten back up. For me, my thread on neutral pelvis here was a revelation. It is VERY tricky because what looks like a forward tipped pelvis can be lack of mobility at L5 so L3, L2,L1 arch and that gives the impression of forward tipped pelvis. I have been curling my back over a 6" foam roller right at the top of my hips (ilia c crest) rolling front and back just 1-2" to work L5 loose. My foot numbness went away in a week. Just like textbook McKenzie, my thigh got really numb and that went away a few days later. So the numbness is centralizing to my lower back. Have you tried 1/2 superman's just by lifting your torso and locking in at L5 to strengthen the muscles? As you get older, when you arch up, these posterior ligaments can buckle on extension, narrowing the spinal canal. When you are younger, they contract and thicken. I'm hoping supermans can help the ligaments not to buckle. Just use a pillow under your abs or engage the glutes so you don't over-arch. Have you tried sumo deadlifts? By standing with the feet apart and pointing out, hold the weight between your legs. Even lifting the barbell up between your legs. Good alternative to hack squats. From what I have read, snapping hip syndrome can be caused by the IT band or gluteus maximus tendon snapping over the greater trochanter when moving into extension. Or the snapping of the iliopsoas tendon over the minor trochanter or hip joint capsule. The fix usually involves stretching. ______________________________________________________________________________________ yannick Apr 13, 2009 - 11:21PM Quote Reply Re: What happens when i finish my inversion therapy Quote: Originally Posted by awaq Yannick, that is a good workout. Cardio will build the ligaments. I have the same problem as you. A few years back hack squats with 3 wheels was great but squats and deads were too much. I don't have access to prolo but I hope that by holding good posture and strengthening the muscles (which weren't engaging to protect L5 - not "the lower back" - but L5) the ligaments will tighten back up. For me, my thread on neutral pelvis here was a revelation. It is VERY tricky because what looks like a forward tipped pelvis can be lack of mobility at L5 so L3, L2,L1 arch and that gives the impression of forward tipped pelvis. I have been curling my back over a 6" foam roller right at the top of my hips (ilia c crest) rolling front and back just 1-2" to work L5 loose. My foot numbness went away in a week. Just like textbook McKenzie, my thigh got really numb and that went away a few days later. So the numbness is centralizing to my lower back. Have you tried 1/2 superman's just by lifting your torso and locking in at L5 to strengthen the muscles? As you get older, when you arch up, these posterior ligaments can buckle on extension, narrowing the spinal canal. When you are younger, they contract and thicken. I'm hoping supermans can help the ligaments not to buckle. Just use a pillow under your abs or engage the glutes so you don't over-arch. Have you tried sumo deadlifts? By standing with the feet apart and pointing out, hold the weight between your legs. Even lifting the barbell up between your legs. Good alternative to hack squats. From what I have read, snapping hip syndrome can be caused by the IT band or gluteus maximus tendon snapping over the greater trochanter when moving into extension. Or the snapping of the iliopsoas tendon over the minor trochanter or hip joint capsule. The fix usually involves stretching. Thanks for reply awaq, yes i did try many different ways of deadlifting sumo, with dumbells, thighten up my buttock and my legs to remove the pressure off my lower back but Helas nothing really works, i am still scared of this lifts and scared that after so much prolo my ligament will give up once more. I did lots and lots of research before finding a prolotherapist, i was very lucky because where i live there is nothing. You should really try to find prolo even if its a bit far from your place. In sport medicine the other place i went too told me that ligaments are not important, that muscles can take there place, that is very wrong, i did 6 months of pelvic exercise to strengthen my lower back and all that region, what happen is that everything came even tighter and the pain was horrible. I am sad to tell you that the only way to fix lax over stretched ligaments is with prolotherapy, there is no other way. Good luck in your rehab.