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awaq
Feb 15, 2009 - 11:48AM
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Egoscue vs. Pilates - who is right?
Egoscue e-cises instruct you to engage your legs while relaxing your stomach. The pillow squeezes, standing gluteal contractions, and "breathing breaks" are examples.
Egoscue also mentions how some people incorrectly walk with their abdominals:
"The abdominals were being used to help position and swing the legs"
Pilates instructs you to engage your abs to stabilize your core. I quote:
"All Pilates exercises initiate from the muscles of the abdominals, lower back, hips,a and buttocks.... your powerhouse"
Opposite concepts. So who is right?
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paul
Feb 15, 2009 - 12:41PM
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Re: Egoscue vs. Pilates - who is right?
hmmmm.....good question....There are disagreements everywhere but i can see Egosuces point that when many people engage their core they tighten and engage their already tight hip flexors. Wheres in Pilates the body is already elongated from all their excercises. I imagine a Pilates trained person has better muscle control. Just a thought. They both get results....albeit slow with Egoscue.
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dave hutchieson
Feb 15, 2009 - 2:12PM
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Re: Egoscue vs. Pilates - who is right?
Hi Awaq
http://www.memorial.ecasd.k12.wi.us/Departments/Science/MAllen/Private_Docs/A&P/individual_muscles/abdominals.jpg
The most important abdominal muscle group, the rectus abdominus [ RA ] attaches to two places:
Just below the rib cage [ xiphoid process ]
To the pubic bone area [ pubic symphysis ]
From a purely engineering point of view:
When a muscle gets stronger, it contracts. It gets shorter.That is a law of bio-mechanics.
When the RA contracts , it pulls the body forward.
As a result, the lower back muscles tighten up in order to keep you erect.
Pilates is a good system, but they are completely wrong on that one.
That is one of the reasons why Pilates helps some but not all.
What they should be telling people is to stretch their abdominal muscles.
Dave Hutchieson
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dave hutchieson
Feb 15, 2009 - 2:17PM
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Re: Egoscue vs. Pilates - who is right?
Bye the way, Pilates will never change their view of that. They have been told "This is the way it is and that's that". Thou shalt not disagree with what we have been doing for years.
Most people have very tight abdominal muscles [ sitting at a desk will do it ].
I had a friend of my wife's come over to the house yesterday with terrible back pain. All twisted to one side. She had been doing Pilates [ again, very good except for the abdominal stuff ] and could barely move.
I showed her how to work her iliacus and psoas and just under the collarbone - she left much better.
Dave
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Jeff
Feb 15, 2009 - 4:02PM
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Re: Egoscue vs. Pilates - who is right?
Another interesting study with the rectus abdominus was from a prolotherapy study where they were working with Cadavers and when they cut the rectus attachment at the pubic bone the Pelvis made a major tilt foward
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awaq
Feb 15, 2009 - 11:54PM
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Re: Egoscue vs. Pilates - who is right?
Right on Dave. Pilates is a cult and despite the advancements made, they still cling to every idea Joe had, right or wrong.
I like Pilates but you really had to weed through the bad stuff. Even Pilate's statement that "no exercise should cause pain ans stop if you do" is misleading as you can do a lot of damage even if you aren't feeling pain.
When I started Egoscue, I was shocked that my instructor kept telling me to make sure my abs were relaxed. My Alexander technique teacher also said we spend too much effort holding in our bellys. I think Joe did the vacuum for appearance not function as hollowing the abs weakens the torso even though you do get a slim waistline.
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Tim
Feb 16, 2009 - 1:53PM
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Re: Egoscue vs. Pilates - who is right?
What about the Pilates theory that today's man has very weak glutes....... that with each step we take the glutes should be engaged. What is the effect of weak glutes.....a forward tilted pelvis ?
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awaq
Feb 22, 2009 - 2:26AM
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Re: Egoscue vs. Pilates - who is right?
What about the Pilates theory that today's man has very weak glutes....... that with each step we take the glutes should be engaged. What is the effect of weak glutes.....a forward tilted pelvis ?
I'm curious did Pilates say that? Today's man probably has a weak everything. The more I know about Pilates the less I am impressed. I question the intentions of someone who gets their picture taken in their underwear standing in the snow. Appearance or function?
Professor Janda had a theory called gluteal amnesia where people incorrectly lifted with their back extensors and hamstrings.
Alexander technique has the exact opposite approach - "Think specifically of releasing your buttock muscles as you walk". From another book avoid that "tight assed" feeling.
"Your abs lie on the torso only and do not go to the legs. Therefore making them work harder supports the back but does not interfere with free leg motion. The buttocks muscles, on the other hand, extend from the torso to the legs. Therefore, tightening them interferes with using your legs freely and causes strain in your lower back".
I interpret this as if your butt is tight, your legs lock up and your back does the pivoting as you step which is a very bad thing. The back is made for stability, the legs for mobility.
Esther Gholkae (sic) says to engage the glutes only when the leg is fully behind the body and you squeeze to push off. She likens it to doing the Salsa.
Pete Egoscue talks about walking with your abs, not the gait muscles:
"Instead of performing their proper role as spinal stabilizers...The abs were being used to help position and swing the legs".
Weak glutes could allow the pelvis to tip forward as could weak abs. Engaging either will keep the pelvis from tipping forward. In walking I would engage the abs so the legs can swing freely.
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Paul
Feb 22, 2009 - 11:56AM
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Re: Egoscue vs. Pilates - who is right?
confusing
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awaq
Feb 22, 2009 - 7:21PM
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Re: Egoscue vs. Pilates - who is right?
Paul, that's for sure.
IMHO I just keep the hip flexors loose so the leg can extend behind the hips and let the abs control the pelvic angle.
Walking is a controlled falling forward so I think gravity takes care of a lot of the motion.
For running some muscle is necessary so you 1) push off with the back leg using the glutes and 2) pull the leg forward with the hip flexors. Note that the hips flexors are relaxed for (1) and the glutes are relaxed with (2) so you are not fighting yourself. Dr. McGill talked about 1) sprinters being weak in pulling the legs forward (H-F's) more than the push off and 2) the ability not only to turn a muscle on but to shut off a muscle VERY fast.
Maybe some expert can explain things better. This is the best I can come up with for now.
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Paul
Feb 22, 2009 - 8:29PM
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Re: Egoscue vs. Pilates - who is right?
I personally think the hip flexors are the key. if your hip flexors are relaxed you are walking more upright anyways. i was always a waaaaay forward leaner and had the tightest hip flexors in the world. trying to change that now while walking. i think it has to be natural because yesterday i walked with great posture and tightened glutes upon heel strike and am sore as hell today in the rear and hammys
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Paulbc
Feb 23, 2009 - 2:04AM
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Re: Egoscue vs. Pilates - who is right?
Hi Paul and awaq,
I'm not a huge expert in Pilates and haven't heard of Egoscue...but I am qualified in Alexander Technique teaching. There aren't many AT teachers who will advocate to "strengthen or stretch" manually/individually any muscle groups of your body.
By learning to release the tensions and tightness in habitual movements we believe that the body already knows how to rebalance the muscles. It takes a little time...and for people who are used to doing "stuff" to change their body, it may seem frustrating.
But as long as you believe that you must "do" something in order to effect change in your body, you are creating more tension. I don't really care if that is strengthening a muscle group...you will be unbalancing another corresponding part of your body. I don't really care if you believe that stretching is going to help...stretching as a separate activity...not associated with normal daily movement can only be a stop gap measure...one which must always be done in order to be effective, and of course...the same problem arises...i.e. stretching "this part" unbalances a myriad of others.
Your comment Paul "yesterday i walked with great posture and tightened glutes upon heel strike" is a good example of how we humans think we know better than the thousands (millions?) of years of evolution of a most balanced and perfectly poised organism. We are "getting in the way" of the natural order of things when we impose our idea of how we should move. What you think is "great posture" is only a version of what your current awareness allows you to know. (that might need help explaining! Just let me know)
After one of my first Alexander lessons I went away thinking I had it all worked out...changed my posture, changed my seat in the car, held my shoulders a different way, relaxed my glutes..etc etc. And ended up "sore as heck" too!
It's not easy, but the principle is simple. Get out of your own way so your body can take care of balance for you...and monitor yourself for when you are getting in the way...with tension and thinking habits such as "I must do this or that in order for my body to be well". It's the opposite, "I must not do this or that and my body will be well".
Hope that gives some better insight on Alexander Technique. Hopefully no-one comes on saying it's a cult like you claimed Pilates is!!
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Paul
Feb 23, 2009 - 6:56AM
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Re: Egoscue vs. Pilates - who is right?
Great and valid points. However, when we have an imbalance to start with it got there somehow. I.e. I was a power athlete and trained my front side mostly and became imbalanced. What do you do then? Keep letting nature take over or try to lengthen the shortness and strengthen the weakness?
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Dan Monahan
Feb 23, 2009 - 7:15AM
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Re: Egoscue vs. Pilates - who is right?
I don't try to walk in a particular way, or think I should be walking with my glutes more, or less with this, or stand up straighter, but I still have loads of pain and have a gait when I walk, and do not walk biomechanically correct, I'm not trying to walk upright I just walk, so I don't see how letting nature do as it is intended is going to work, because that is what I do, and have done, and I have got weaker!!!
You have to take into consideration your environment, if you spend the majority of your time sitting, then muscle memory plays the ultimate role, and the muscles will get used to being used for sitting and not walking, and your body will not be able to function correctly when walking, other muscles will get involved and other key muscles will not work. You CAN't get muscles to work consiouscly, it has to happen subconsiouscly, and you do this by muscle balance therapy.
If you have a muscle in spasm no amount of just allowing nature to take over is going to work, the muscle is in spasm and needs to be addressed, or the actual dysfuncitons you have need to be addressed.
Maybe I have interpreted this incorrectly, and apologise if I have, but if I haven't then I don't see how the Alexander Technique can help!!!
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Jeff
Feb 23, 2009 - 2:00PM
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Re: Egoscue vs. Pilates - who is right?
I think one of the keys for strengthening is to pay very close attention to your form and posture...for instance if your doing a cable row and your slouched foward doing it your just building that muscle to promote the slouch.....now if you keep your shoulders backand concentrate on being vertical and pinching your shoulder blades back then your building the muscle to hold your posture in better form.......just like side lat raised where you have 2 dumbells and your raising them up but your shoulders are slouched foward while doing it ...same thing building those shoulders to further hold a slouch position
Ive been a victim of doing strengthening exercises in the wrong position...just not paying attention and thinking about finishing the workout
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Weight Training Paul
Feb 23, 2009 - 5:52PM
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Re: Egoscue vs. Pilates - who is right?
Hi guys
Just like to say, somthing I've noticed like Paul, is that when I walk, I simply lean to far forward, I think I've been doing this for years, basically because I feel I can walk faster, I've never been a slow walker and want to get from A to B as fast as possible
Almost feels like I'm leaning back by walking standing up dead straight, plus I can't move as fast, Micheal Johnson use to run 200m and 400m with a dead straight back though
In general though most folks think abs are weak, you see this everywhere for back issues, the thing is they are only weak because they are in a contracted position, therefor should be stretched and massaged out to get power back
Cheers
wtp
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awaq
Feb 23, 2009 - 7:02PM
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Re: Egoscue vs. Pilates - who is right?
PaulBC, Egoscue is a lot like Alexander Technique. He does release of compensating muscles so the intended muscle can do its job. But I agree with Paul about how simply relaxing can release a locked up muscle. Especially one as strong as the psoas that has been locked up for years in a sitting postion.
For the psoas, Egoscue has a "Supine Groin Stretch". You lie on your back with one leg 90-90 bend at hip and knee. This legs rests on a block of the appropriate height. The other leg extends straight out onto the ground with a little block to keep the leg from rotating out. You lie there for at least 15 minutes until your back goes flat on the ground.
I can see the validity of rleaxing vs. trying to force the abck into the ground. I've tried that and ended up hurting my back more. But I don't see how a passive stretch could ever get this muscle to let go. Wouldn't you need to apply some force? What is your take on this?
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awaq
Feb 23, 2009 - 7:14PM
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Re: Egoscue vs. Pilates - who is right?
One of the most profound statements I ever read was from Robin McKenzie (Mr. Cobra stretch) when questions about strengthing in his "7 Steps to a Pain Free Life":
"We ahve found if you restore alignment, the correct muscles will strengthen themselves through the course of normal activity"
So focus on posture, not the muscles, and the muscles will take care of themselves.
Jeff, agreed. Practive makes permanent not perfect.
W-T-P, Egoscue does "functional runs" where his patients do a run just above walking speed for 20 min - 2 hours. When pushing yourself hard, the strongest muscles take over. If the compensating muscles are strong, you never get to the right muscles and the bad muscles keep getting stronger and you get more out of whack. I find that if I walk too fast I loose my form and do more damage than good.
It's amazing how easy you have to start off with the Alexander Technique. You quickly find out how weak the "good" muscles are. I do the same thing with crunches. First meditate to total relaxation then try to keep everything relaxed as I start the motion. You quickly find muscles that get tight for no reason and hwo weak the prime movers really are - are least for a dysfunctional person like me.
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