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awaq
Jan 20, 2009 - 10:40AM
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Getting discs to heal
Hi all,
My history:
1) 20+ years racing bikes in forward bent position.
2) In 2002 discovered I cannot deadlift over 45 lbs without back pain for the next 2 days. Regardless of arched back position.
3) 2002 cannot stand for over 20 minutes without pain.
4) 2006 MRI shows broad based disc bulge at L3,L4,L5. Mild - moderate stenosis, and osteophytes at nearly all levels. In short, I dinged up my back.
5) 2006 - present: P/T including McKenzie extension, walking, Egoscue, decompression (http://www.solutions.com/jump.jsp?itemType=PRODUCT&itemID=12004)
After 3 years of doing this I found I am 0% improved. Yes, all these things bring temporary relief but actual healing is ZERO. My P/T says I have degenerative fraying of the ligaments (maybe not perfectly accurate but descriptive) and there is nothing he can do. He was surprised since I am in my 40's.
I saw an idiot PHD in April 2008 who told me not to round forward and after 2 months the muscles got so tight the discs bulged to the left and has herniated. Now my left leg goes numb too. He told me discs never heal, they just "toughen up".
I cannot run. Not even 15 minutes without severe pain starting 2 hours after. Actually my leg goes numb now while I run thanks to the idiot PHD. I cannot sit in the car for over 15 minutes without pain. The back collapses and I can hear / feel the bones being crunchy in my lower back.
ANY HOPE FOR THIS?
THANKS
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Jesse Cannone
Jan 20, 2009 - 11:52AM
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Re: Getting discs to heal
YES, there IS hope...
Start off by reading these articles:
http://www.losethebackpain.com/conditions/herniateddisc.html
http://www.losethebackpain.com/blog/2008/12/22/heal-a-herniated-disc-you-bet-you-can/
Have you gotten started with our Lose The Back Pain program yet?
Jesse
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awaq
Jan 20, 2009 - 1:32PM
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Re: Getting discs to heal
Hi Jesse,
Thanks for the links. Yes I tried your program and now Egoscue which is similar but they evaluate me so it seems more effective. But again, all I get is temporary relief.
I have read the herniation can recede over time but the disc will never be the same. I think mine are too shot to really heal to a function level - i.e. 15 minute run - just by removing the stress of a muscle imbalance. It seems too late for that.
Walking seems to help. Maybe because of the "pumping action" but today I did not walk and the leg is numb again. So no lasting healing effect.
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awaq
Jan 20, 2009 - 4:11PM
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Re: Getting discs to heal
It sounds like from your decompression article you do not think the VAX-D works and neither does the DRX-9000? While inversion does work?
I question the Pettibon wobble chair because sitting is hard on the discs and movement while compressing the spine, be it self-motion or chair induced vibration, is terrible for the discs. Like grinding the back into sawdust and crabmeat as one surgeon described every spine he did surgery on.
I would think walking would be better. Once again the alternating legs would also pump the discs.
I found this "disc hydrator"
http://www.activeforever.com/showproduct.aspx?ProductID=2165&SEName=posture-pump-disc-hydrator-model-6100
any opinions?
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Dan Monahan
Jan 20, 2009 - 4:14PM
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Re: Getting discs to heal
Hi Awaq
U haven't mentioned how long you have been doing the Egoscue work??
Don't try and run if you experience pain just sitting or standing, your body is telling you, that you have dysfunctions and that something is wrong, listen to your body!
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dave hutchieson
Jan 20, 2009 - 5:56PM
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Re: Getting discs to heal
Awaq
What you are saying about the Pettibon wobble chair is completely incorrect.
Send me a private e-mail and I'll send you x-rays of my spine before and after.
Got to this link and about half way through it, freeze it at the point where I'm showing my x-rays to the TV interviewer.
http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail;jsessionid=97CE72C05B51CA2E2C9348FFD988E036?contentId=7346846&version=1&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=VSTY&pageId=1.1.1&sflg=1
Pettibon has more success than anything else apart from a few individuals who use the DiskForce system.
You will see how bad my L5-S1 disk was.
Good Luck
Dave Hutchieson
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awaq
Jan 21, 2009 - 12:05AM
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Re: Getting discs to heal
Hi Dan, you are right about the running. Bummer to go from 6 minute miles to walking so I wish it would heal. My back gets really stiff from walking sort of like I'm doing my own fusion. So I decompress and stretch a little after FWIW.
I've only been doing Egoscue for 1 week. I have done the e-cises before, but not prescribed for me in the specific order. Problem is doing static back makes my leg go numb.
Not sure if simply taking the stress off the disc is enough to get it to heal.
I've asked about prolotherapy but can't get enough straight answers to trust someone sticking a needle into my spine. Besides the DO wants to do an epidural, then discogram before prolo.
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Dan Monahan
Jan 21, 2009 - 4:49AM
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Re: Getting discs to heal
Hey Awaq!!
1 week dude?! Come on....Seriously, you can't expect anything to work after one week...It's about undoing all the problems you have caused over years of damage to your body, you cannot expect your body to feel better after 1 week.
It sounds to me like you are being very impatient, I totally understand where you are coming from, but you need to remain patient, you need to find something that makes perfect sense to you, and then stick with it, don't do a form of therapy you are not 100% commited to or believe in 100%, because you will not give it your all.
Be patient my friend!
Thanks Dan
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Lak
Jan 21, 2009 - 12:24PM
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Re: Getting discs to heal
Hi Awaq,
There are people on here who have used Al Meilus for treatment, it could be an option. If you have any questions about Al and his treatment then post away.
Thanks,
Lak
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Weight Training Paul
Jan 21, 2009 - 2:19PM
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Re: Getting discs to heal
Hi Awaq
Of course there's hope, just look at what Dave has been though
I hear ya with bones crunching in the lower back and a numb leg
I think you need two things knowledge and money, if you have them great things happen
Why don't you look into the Pettibon gear or Al, the proof is there, heck that disc machine you posted cost $ 2000, $ 2000 goes a fair way if know the right people
wtp
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Yannick
Jan 21, 2009 - 7:46PM
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Re: Getting discs to heal
prolotherapy will help with ligaments to make them stronger, i did 9 treatments and works wonders, i got ligaments laxity.
I met a lot of morons myself dont get discouraged chiros are the worst idiots on earth.
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awaq
Jan 26, 2009 - 7:57PM
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Re: Getting discs to heal
Dave,
I sent you an e-mail. Did you get it? Have not heard back from you. I can see how sitting could help the stenosis and wobble chair could loosen the muscles in a sitting position. My discs are too torn up to move when under a loaded condition. E.g. cars kills my back in 15 minutes or less.
That is an interesting machine the doc invented. Looks like it does the psoas release my massage does when he jambs his thumbs through my gut.
Dan,
Actually 3 years + 1 week since I started trying to rehab my back through P/T. Since 2007 when I finally found a pretty good P/T to reverse distortions. I have been working on my own since 1998. So it's been much longer than 1 week.
The history in my posts are brief but I have been putting 100% for over 3 years. Read every book I can find, been to every doc, P/T, I can find. Also tried massage, Pilates, Yoga, Alexander Technique, Core distortion release, diet, food allergies, bacterial infection, posture work, decompression, walking, stretching, and more that I can't all remember right now. I'm not talking some class at the gym but some of the finest trainers I can find.
If you know how money can heal a herniated disc, etc. without surgery, pills, or injections. let me know because I have not found it yet. I've been fooled by false hope but as my my ortho says, "You can get an MRI every year but it's never going to look better, only worse". Also my neurologist says "It's a progression, disc bulge then they herniate". It's a shame there are only nerves in the outer 1/3 of the disc so there is considerable damage by the time you start to feel pain.
Herniated abdomen never heals on it's own so i don't see how a herniated disc can really heal on its own either. One doc I saw said "They don't, they can only toughen up". As McKenzie wrote, once you have recurrent back pain you should never lift over 30 pounds, even if you are completely free of pain". That does not sound like true healing to me. I have yet to find anyone to prove these statements wrong. Unfortunately, including myself.
So you can reduce the stress by limiting activity, maybe even be lucky enough to have a little recovery.
Yannick,
What a great experience for you. But how did you find the right doc to find the exact problem and then do the injections right? It seems like a big risk if something goes wrong. My D.O. wants to do an epidural, then discogram, then maybe prolo. I refuse epidural, don't trust discogram.
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dave hutchieson
Jan 26, 2009 - 10:03PM
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Re: Getting discs to heal
Hello Awaq
I never got your mail. Try re-sending it. Best to copy and paste as many people get my surname wrong.i.e. just "i" alone or just "e" alone in middle.
Dave
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awaq
Jan 27, 2009 - 12:20AM
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Re: Getting discs to heal
Thanks Dave. I resent. Thanks for the help, I'm just discouraged, because, despite how hard I try, this injury just progresses like I'm not even trying at all.
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Yannick
Jan 27, 2009 - 6:48AM
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Re: Getting discs to heal
If there is tendon and ligament damage and all else failed then prolo is for you.
I found my medical doctor who is a licence doctor and sport medecin has well.
Even if you have disc damage and hernia prolo can help strenghten the structure around the disc to make that spine stronger.
An epidural can be the worst thing to damage the back even more.
If the medical doctor you are with doesnt fit you or you start losing confidence in him then change.
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dave hutchieson
Jan 27, 2009 - 5:36PM
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Re: Getting discs to heal
Hello Awaq
I still have not received it.
Have sent you a mail to the address you have on your posting.
Have been receiving other mails normally.
Dave
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fred
Jan 28, 2009 - 11:24AM
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Re: Getting discs to heal
I know how you feel, Im getting discourged too. I wonder if there is anything else to try before surgery?
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Lak
Jan 28, 2009 - 12:28PM
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Re: Getting discs to heal
Hi Fred,
What has made you want surgery? Why the discouragement mate? Have you spoken to Al regarding the problem?
Try and cal Al and try to get to the bottom of it before you undergo surgery. For robot purchasers Al provides free treatment, can you not make another appointment?
Best luck mate, stay in there.
Lak
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dave hutchieson
Jan 28, 2009 - 12:58PM
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Re: Getting discs to heal
Hi Fred
As you use the robot,your body will change.
When a muscle loosens up, the next tightest one takes over. This will cause physical changes in your body and posture. Al needs to be able to see these changes in order to tell you which muscles to work on next. In other words, it is not a static [ stay-still ] situation in your body. Your body will change.
There are three ways that this can be done:
1. By phone [ least preferable, as he cannot physically see you ]
2. By photos [ same as LTBP - four views left right front and back ]
3. Visiting him. He offers free visits. This is the best solution.
If you cannot get to see him for any reason, send in photos.
Of all the thousands of patients he has dealt with who have robots, provided they keep in touch with him on a regular basis, all have either gotten rid of their pain completely or have greatly reduced pain levels.
In my own case, I can see from photos that my body posture has changed dramatically over the last year.
There is another person from the website who was in the same boat. He is now improving each week due to a different pattern of working the muscles being used.
If you drop me a personal e-mail, I'll send you details.
I have only seen one other person who was in worse physical condition than me in terms of walking, and he is now getting better.
If you get surgery, you will not be correcting what is causing the pain, and you will set yourself up for future surgeries, due to scar tissue, disk weakness etc. Once those disks have bits cut from them, they are never as strong.
Dave Hutchieson
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awaq
Jan 28, 2009 - 2:38PM
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Re: Getting discs to heal
Hi Dave, I sent you 3 more e-mails. Says they went through and I have not gotten them back. Maybe in your spam folder?
Yannick yea, this DO insists on an epidural first. What are these doc's problem? Just sending business to a friend so he can make some money too?
Fred, boy I do not know about surgery. I've heard 16% success rate. I don't know your case but would say surgery is a total non-option, UNLESS you have a very definitive problem like fracture since surgery is extremely precise in its treatment.
I'm doing e-cises for a tight diaphragm now as i can't breath and P/T thinks this is causing problems.
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awaq
Jan 28, 2009 - 2:41PM
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Re: Getting discs to heal
Dave I'm using:
dhutchieson@yahoo.com
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dave hutchieson
Jan 28, 2009 - 6:37PM
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Re: Getting discs to heal
Awaq
The diaphragm is very important in people with back pain.
When it is very tight, it pulls you forward. Your body is programmed to keep the spine erect [ to prevent damage ] to the spinal cord, so the lower back muscles tighten up to keep the spine straight.
Laying on your back and relaxed, you should be able to dig your fingers in at least one inch.
Dave Hutchieson
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awaq
Jan 28, 2009 - 7:52PM
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Re: Getting discs to heal
Yes, this has been a problem for years but never found someone with good e-cises for it.
One is to face the wall, bend your knees and put your hands on the wall with straight arms.
The other is to lie on your stomach with a golf ball in your bellybutton. Hold for 20 minutes.
I agree when you say you fix one muscle then another becomes a problem. So for today, the diaphragm is the problem.
"Poor breathing makes you feel tired. Mental, physical, and emotional shock shuts down the diaphragm's free movement. Most of the time you and your diaphragm recover. Sometimes though, you really get the wind knocked out of you and don't quit get it back. When that happens, you breath and live at half speed.
This diaphragm release exercise gradually reduces the tension in and around the diaphragm. Reduced tension helps the diaphragm to stroke more deeply and freely so you can breath deeper and easier. That way, you get more oxygen - that precious fuel fro the metabolic furnaces - into the blood."
Last week it was the kidneys. Seems this is the low time of the year for kidneys. They need to be kept warm and drink enough fluids. 8 glasses a day. Made me feel better but back pain persists.
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awaq
Feb 2, 2009 - 12:56AM
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Re: Getting discs to heal
Been doing more reading and thinking and lower back circulation is critical. Must be why my doc said to get "hot and sweaty" exercising.
See this article:
http://nutritionresearchcenter.org/healthnews/oh-your-aching-back-maybe-a-lack-of-blood-circulation-is-the-key/
Problem is walking is no exercise for me, running has impact, cycling bends the lower back. That leaves swimming ugghhh or the elliptical. Any other ideas?
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awaq
Feb 2, 2009 - 1:09AM
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Re: Getting discs to heal
Does anyone here need to wear socks when they sleep at night? I do and that poor circulation to the feet could also be a sign of poor circulation in the lower back.
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Weight Training Paul
Feb 5, 2009 - 6:23PM
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Re: Getting discs to heal
Hi Awaq
The circulation isn't great in my feet also
Paul
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Brenda Wood
Feb 6, 2009 - 4:31PM
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Re: Getting discs to heal
Awaq,
You said you wanted an exercise that makes you hot and sweaty, but walking didn't do it for you, try this. Go for a 10-20 min. walk (to warm up) and end in a building that has at least 4 flights of stairs. Walk up the those stairs several times and see if you don't get hot and sweaty. It especially works your quads and buttocks, and definitely increases your heart rate and respiration. I just started doing this again last week at lunch in our building, and it's really starting to balance my hips out again. Good luck.
Brenda
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abdullahtoprak
Feb 7, 2009 - 2:48PM
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Re: Getting discs to heal
Another alternative, but not sure as for which cases it will work:
http://www.migunworld.com/
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Noel Philips
Mar 1, 2009 - 3:20AM
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Re: Getting discs to heal
Hi Team. My first posting also. Interesting you have cold feet - which has prompted me to weigh in on this chat. Around June 2008 I started with the lumbar pain - feels like a knife in the back, right side above my hip - especially in afternoons (I think a change of job meant I lost my core strength and therefore hurt my back lifting and twisting - happened before but usually gets better - not this time). Been to lots of Chiro and Phyiso appointments to little avail. Xray concluded nothing serious but Chiro commented on a minor herniated disc in the lower lumber, plus curvature of spine due to muscular imbalances (but no exercises were offered to correct these MIs - just lots of back cracking appointments) I was also jogging at the time - sounds like that was a bad idea - I have stopped now. I am on the 'lose the back pain' system sincew Jan 30 - according to my assessment and Steve I have slight high hip right side, forward neck and shoulders and forward tipped pelvis. I have been doing the prescribed stretches twice a day for 4 weeks now and I would have to say I have had zero improvement thus far. I am not expecting changes immediately but would like to know how long is a usual case to feel somewhat better. (How long is a piece of string I hear you say!) I liked the comment about straight posture & I will be onto that as from now. I have been really prone to cold feet this last winter June to October 2008) - my wife thinks I'm wacky as I have never been this bad - wearing socks to bed all the time. Perhaps it is from the back injury - How do I increase circulation in this lumbar section. Today I started swimming. Did 12 x 50m laps - nearly killed me but I intend to continue - I reckon 'LTBPain system' stretches in the morning and swimming in the afternoon. What do you guys think regarding herniated disc recovery time? Thanks. Noel
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DD
Mar 1, 2009 - 1:17PM
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Re: Getting discs to heal
Has anyone tried the Power Plate? I have been told that it improves muscle tone and good for circulation.
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paulbc
Mar 1, 2009 - 7:07PM
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Re: Getting discs to heal
Hey Awaq,
I have so much respect for what you've tried and are still trying to solve your back issues. My journey was similar...trying everything!
Not one thing in particular solved it. If I was to pigeon hole everything I tried...it covers movement, mind and nutrition.
Just reading your posts I can feel your frustration. It's no wonder. But here's what is going to change your attitude.
Belief.
Believe that every single thing you try is a step closer. Give each thing you try 3 months...then move on if things aren't changing.
Be happy.
There is a lot to be happy about isn't there? If you take your focus off the problem (which is gnawing away at your sanity) and go look for reasons to feel good about yourself...it's amazing what you'll dig up...and as a result, your body can do amazing things in that change of consciousness. (e.g. watch some funny tv if you can't think of things in your life that you love)
Let go.
Yikes! Are you crazy? "If I don't solve this, nobody will". I know the feeling. Blaming other people whether they've given you poor advice or just haven't helped will keep your mindset locked into "it's up to me". Every now and then...treat yourself to a complete body/mind luxury. Whether that is massage or a spa or a swim in a flotation tank. Do something that allows you to let go of every care you have.
All of the above might be the hardest stuff you can do right now. But that just might be the message eh?
Hope to hear back from you.
cheers Paul
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awaq
Mar 2, 2009 - 3:33PM
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Re: Getting discs to heal
Noel,
I really like the Back Buddy from Wal-Greens and wear it all the time:
http://www.walgreens.com/store/product.jsp?CATID=304842&navAction=jump&navCount=0&nug=VPD&skuid=sku315761&id=prod15761
When I started I was like you and gave things MONTHS to see if it would work. Now I agree with Pete Egoscue that you should feel better and some results right away. Some things like "Static Back" and "Cobra Stretch" may be uncomfortable at first and you may nees to work into them slowly. These are normal body positions which is why I suggest you stick ith tem even if they are troublesome at first. You would also have other things going on as well.
I also learned not to stay with exactly the same exercise, no matter how good it seems, for over 6 weeks. Your body decides: "hey it didn't kill me yet so I can slack off" and the e-cise will not be effective after that.
For example, instead of "Static Back" switch to the "Child's Pose".
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awaq
Mar 2, 2009 - 3:41PM
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Re: Getting discs to heal
Noel,
I also want to add, at risk of being too wordy, IMHO herniated discs will NEVER heal until to stop doing what caused it. In my case I also have an elevated right hip. This is due to a tight right psoas (Hip flexor) and despite all the stretches got no better.
Then through strange fate I came here, saw Dave's video of him on the robot with it sinking 3" into his gut. At the same time I started with a new P/T who wanted me to lie face down with a golf ball in my belly-button.
So I got a hardball and lied on THAT 1 1/2" to the right of my belly button. Feltlike throwing up. Couldn't even breath. 4 weeks later ---- no problem, can breath, even with the hardball on a 1/2" block of wood.
Then I do static back, let the right psoas release so the right hip drops down and rotates closer to the floor. This allows the left pasoas to start to engage while the right psoas is released.
Lie there for 10-20 minutes.
Amazing results with this and NOW, after 5 months some healing is occuring. Never would have until I hit the right formula.
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awaq
Mar 2, 2009 - 3:42PM
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Re: Getting discs to heal
Paul,
Bakc at you. Those posts on Alexander Technique were great!!
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awaq
Apr 6, 2009 - 12:41PM
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Re: Getting discs to heal
To answer my own question, “Do discs heal?” IME I would have to say no. I’m talking about the micro tears and delamination of the annular fibers of the disc. This is what causes the disc walls to bulge and then herniate. I would call disc bulge a yellow light while a herniation is a red light. The disc gets “leaky” and the nucleus leaks out externally through the micro tears and internally into the delaminations. The result is you loose the capacity to lift a heavy weight. You also lose the capacity to hold a sustained position for as long a period of time. This could be sitting or standing. What happens is the constant muscular tension squeezes the fluid out of the disc and out of the cartilage in the facet joints. The more the disc dries out, the more the tears, and the faster this all happens.
Non-surgical treatments deal with reducing the stress on the disc in hopes that it will heal. This includes:
1) Limit bending first thing in the morning when the disc is most hydrated.
2) Relaxing tight muscles.
3) Correcting muscle imbalances which put high levels of stress in one concentrated area of the disc.
4) Correcting posture as bad posture requires more muscle tension and can put imbalanced loads on the discs.
But even if the stress is reduced will the disc ever heal? One doc recommended staying active because “giving up your favorite activity may not make you better.” So even if you stop doing everything, he is saying it’s questionable that you will heal. Continuing the activity can damage you more, but stopping it won’t let you get better. It’s a negative game. Do the right things and you won’t get better. Do the wrong things and you get worse.
Doing #1-5 above could let someone “heal” under the following conditions:
CASE #1: Say their back hurts after standing for 6 hours. Therapy reduces stress on the back, not healing anything but building capacity due to lower stresses on the back. This allows them to stand for 8 hours which is a standard work day so no more pain and they are “healed”.
CASE #2: The disc damage is relatively minor and the person is young and has lots of healthy tissue with good blood circulation. Given time, the surrounding ligaments and tissue get stronger and can make up for the weakness of the irreparably damaged tissue. Again, the actual damage has never healed.
CASE #3: Someone has a healthy disc but a herniation in one small area. The disc is basically pretty strong and eventually the herniated material will be re-absorbed and then no more pressure on the nerve. Again no real healing of the disc and if the disc is not too damaged, you can recover okay.
CASE #4: The disc is healthy but the surrounding ligaments are damaged from a car accident or can occur with pregnant women due to the release of the hormone “relaxin”. Given time, or prolotherapy, those ligaments can “tighten up” and you really are completely healed. But note the difference between a stretched ligament and one that is actually torn. Also we’re not talking about the disc. Can prolo reconnect a torn ligament? My guess is no. My doc refuses to do it on me anyhow.
CASE #5: Relaxing the muscles can allow the discs to rehydrate to some extent and take some pressure off the facet joints, for example. I wouldn’t expect much reversal of the degenerated disc. How many hours of capacity standing before the disc collapses again?
So this leaves the option of trying to strengthen the disc walls by other means. Electrotherapy like “IDET” kills the nerves and turns the living disc annulus into a dead, tough, rubbery material. This apparently may work for up to 5 years but with dire consequences after that. Others have injected silicon into the disc to fill in the voids. Again, this may help some and ruin others. Finally there is prolotherapy done to the actual disc annulus itself. I cannot get a straight answer from anyone about this procedure so who knows?
About the best hope in this situation is to play around with the capacity you have. So lie down all day so your discs are healthy enough for a 20 minute run. Or lie in bed for 14 hours to allow standing for 6. The REALLY NEGATIVE thing about all this if that if you can’t turn off the downward spiral, and you’re lucky if you can only slow it, your life as you knew it is essentially over
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yannick
Apr 6, 2009 - 2:57PM
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Re: Re: Getting discs to heal
Prolotherapy is not to heal disk but to get the surrounding area strong, ligaments and tendons, to hold the spin in place.
Also with strong core muscles that would really help too.
Inversion table is a must to help decompress the spin.
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Weight Training Paul
Apr 27, 2009 - 6:54PM
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Re: Re: Getting discs to heal
Hi awaq
Do discs heal
This depends on what you do
Dave's disc made a huge recovery, if you got a discs which are totally shatted, why not look into the pettibon system
I have a bugle at s1, which is moderatey degenerate, with moderate stenosis, I realise many folks after 20 years old have some degeneration at s1 anyway
Like you said in another post many don't believe the vast number of discs issues are causeing the chronic pain anyway
Since using the robot my crunching from the facets has been silenced almost completely
To answer this question do discs heal - yeah I think they can be improved considerably
How do you know the pain is from the disc's
cheers
Paul
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awaq
Apr 27, 2009 - 9:34PM
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Re: Re: Getting discs to heal
Hi Paul,
Thanks for the support.
My old P/T said it short and sweet:
" You have degenerative fraying of the ligaments. There's nothing I can do".
He recommended decompressing 4x / day for 20 minutes on a home traction unit to keep the discs pumped up. I had to stop it as it was tearing my posterior disc and increasing my symptoms. -30 degree inversion for 5 minutes is the only thing that seems to help. His only other suggestion was fusion or artificial disc replacement.
My new P/T says micro tears/ delaminations do heal. Maybe you are right, I hope so.
I am interested in the robot but am pretty flexible already. I think it would increase my back's capacity by reducing the stress but don't know if it actually heals anything. I can now put a hardball anywhere in my gut with no problem. My massage guy can push my psoas to my spine. Both treatments have helped reduce the pain and increased my back's capacity slightly. But I see no actual healing going on.
My P/T seemed to like the Pettibon System but I just don't understand the concept. All that motion at L5 gets my lower back really irritated so don't see how this can do any good.
FWIW, my MRI's show "broad based disc bulge" at L3, L4, L5. Basically bulging almost as far as a normal herniation. On three levels. The bone spurs fill up 1/2 the foraminal opening. L1 is not as bad as Dave's but is pretty much no more.
Looking at symptoms, not an MRI, I think at least part of the problem is the discs and posterior long ligaments. For example, if I sit, especially in the car, I have intolerable pain within 1/2 hour. Then my foot goes numb. Even with a lumbar support, my back still buckles.
I have NEVER been able to sit again after I ruined what was left of my back with Pilates 2004-2007 which involved rounding the lower back, full situps, etc. which caused posterior tearing (of the discs?). I now only kneel on a gardening foam pad which takes the stress of the posterior disc (which is also comprised of the long ligaments).
Same thing when I stand. I feel okay for maybe 1 hour. Then my back collapses, I have pain, my back gets crunchy, and lose the mobility in my back.
I can use my muscles to give temporary support to my back in no-load situations. Such as practicing locking in my multifidus at L5 when doing deep knees bends. This has been MUCH MORE beneficial than non-functional exercises like the bird-dog. Hurts like hell but seems to have a positive benefit. I cannot lift any weight, regardless of my back being arched, flat, or slightly rounded.
This SPINEWORKS thing has been great. I used it every hour after raking, etc. this weekend to prop my back back up:
http://www.amazon.com/Spineworx-SW10-Spine-Worx-Realignment-Device/dp/B000F8UBG0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=hpc&qid=1240880269&sr=8-1
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Weight Training Paul
Apr 28, 2009 - 1:18PM
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Re: Re: Getting discs to heal
Hi awaq
I don't have personal expense with the Pettibon System, I'm just going from what Dave's said and what progress he's made and from others using it, I think you would be wise to look into the concept somthing you should try if your in America, worth a shot
I'm pretty flexible also, however Lou gross told me I looked like I was getting flexible more in the joints and muscle bellies were still hard some what
I think you can be flexible but still have unhealthy muscles so some degree
The robot does heal
I've been streching my iliacus, psoas plus all around top of legs, addcors, plus massage guy working there for what seems like donkey years, but it's actually around 18 months since I know to start doing this, but the robot has gone beyond this already I feel, it's not so much total pressure, it's pressure in the same shot held there for a long long time
Can you put your MRI up to look at, here is mine
http://www.backpainsupportforum.com/profile/WeighttrainingPaul
Paul
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awaq
Apr 30, 2009 - 6:02PM
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Re: Re: Getting discs to heal
Hi Paul. No, don't have the MRI but looks much worse overall than yours. What stands out to me on yours is there is no lumbar curve. Looks totally flat. Did you notice Dave got some lumbar curve back after the robot therapy?
I think back pain can be reduced by relaxing the muscles and they say a herniation pain should only last 2 weeks. After that it is something else.
However, I would define healing as "an increase in capacity". Like being able to lift 125# instead of 100#. And not by some trick like chalk, belt, or suit. That's how many back systems say they "heal". This is fine but I see it more as a trick of reducing the load on the back vs. increasing absolute capacity.
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Weight Training Paul
Apr 30, 2009 - 6:55PM
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Re: Re: Getting discs to heal
Hi awaq
I understand what you mean and I agree with you
For me healing is feeling whole, like a jigsew puzzle with all the parts put together in the right way and having zero restrictions, I feel more like this with robot added into the plan
To look at me I have lumbar curve though, way to much, it was the first and most important thing Lou gross said, coming mainly from the RA and IP muscles, I see what you mean though the MRI looks flat, does yours have more curve then, were you laying down
Paul
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awaq
May 3, 2009 - 1:42AM
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Re: Re: Getting discs to heal
Ugghhh, I hate to even look at it. Gets me depressed. It depends on the depth. At some depths mine looks more curved. Other depths about the same as yours in the lumbar area but I still have some curve in the thoracic so my spine has something of an "S". As you noted what shows up on MRI has little relationship to standing up.
You can get more apparent thoracic curve by reducing the lumbar curve but what is important, IMHO, is the total curves and reversals. This shows that the spine can absorb shock and act like a spring. So maybe you have too much lumbar curve but what about thoracic curve? Egoscue had me lie in static back and at the end of a full exhale, engage my abs and flatten my mid-back, at my solar plexus area, into the floor. Pilates also had crunches where you curl up through the thoracic spine to get some compliance in this area.
I agree about all the pieces falling into place. Like my P/T says, if on area is tight another will be loose. It has to. I think this is how people get injured. It's not a matter of lack of strength but that when one area is overactive, another area shuts off.
A simple rule for fixing back pain:
Look at how you got injured and do the reverse. For example, I hurt my back bending forward over the bike. Arching back reverses the direction the damage occurred in and should help reduce symptoms.
Many people can tell you what they were doing when they got injured. This can provide important clues as to muscle weakness and injury mechanism. Problem is few P/T's are willing to take the time and effort to dig this deep. Unfortunately that is what is required to effectively fix back pain.
As Dr. McGill says "Note that joint stiffness increases rapidly and nonlinearly with muscle activation such that only very modest levels (5-10% of MVC) of muscle activity create sufficiently stiff and stable joints."
It's a tricky concept for people to grasp. It's one thing to make a muscle stronger. That's easy to do. It's entirely different when you don't know how to activate a muscle group AT ALL and get it to turn back on.
I'm pretty sure that's how that kid who played football whose Mom posted here got hurt. People get tackled all the time without a back injury. Some part of his back is shut off. He got hit right in that spot and had ZERO muscle to protect from the hit. That's why he's still hurting long after the herniation (if he even has that) is out of the acute phase.
So how are you now? Can you lift again?
BTW, another interesting quote from Dr. McGill re: athletes:
"For athletes, once a back injury has occurred, generally they will not be "healed" even after the symptoms resolved. It is interesting to consider the comments of those who have several world records to their credit in weightlifting following back injury. They state that a back injury forced them to maintain perfect lifting form because they realized that if they lost the "locked" spine, they would become reinjured in an instant. Thus, at least during their competitive careers, they had to utilize stabilizing technique for their backs. They competed successfully. It is interesting to consider those I have seen as patients several years after their competitive days who became symptomatic after they lost their fitness and ability to stabilize. The original damage was still there and became troublesome."
MORAL: Back injury can be managed but never heals.
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Weight Training Paul
May 5, 2009 - 1:50PM
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Re: Re: Getting discs to heal
Hi awaq
I've read the more lumbar curve the more thoracic curve a person gets
I'm much better with robot added into my program, can actually see the day where I'm totally free of this problem now I have this device, still more work to do though, feeling less angled off, but certain parts like my leg feel a little dead on the inside, I feel the inside will wake up more with time though
You'd never know now looking at me, but I feel I was front loaded when I was bigger, also I think the incredible doms I got after lifting for years harmed many muscles without them ridding themselves of the waste in time before the next session, I think my leg muscles were just sick so to speak
I was just doing cable face pulls and laying down reverse flys, but since reading in fasica, I went off this, but I might start back at it again, either way I know when I am back my training will be unbalanced to stay balanced
I hear you with the guy playing football, if a muscle is shut off, its because of another muscle else where doing to much, I think once the body is working how it should be its great at healing itself
Paul
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awaq
May 5, 2009 - 9:28PM
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Re: Re: Getting discs to heal
Paul, it's encouraging to hear your success. Still, like seeing a UFO you have to experience it yourself to believe it can happen to you. I am doing a little better day by day. Like watching grass grow, I look where I was in January and realize, hey I'm not that bad anymore.
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awaq
May 7, 2009 - 3:51PM
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Re: Getting discs to heal
I wanted to share a very important concept which culminated in a conversation with my P/T today. For the last year, until about 1 month ago, I was working on “fusing” my spine by limiting all bending of the lower back. This was based on Dr. McGill’s “Ultimate Back Fitness and Performance” statement: “It would appear that the cascade of changes resulting from some forms of tissue damage can take years but generally not longer than 10 years. Although the bad news is the affected joints stiffen during the cascade of change, the good news I that eventually the pain is gone. Troublesome backs are generally not a life sentence.”
I took this that if the joints stiffen the pain will be gone. I can say that this 1 year experiment was a dismal failure for my and led me to horrible back pain almost all the time. My P/T noticed about 1 month ago that I had no motion at L4 and L5. This is the beginning of stenosis. So I decided to try and restore motion at these joints.
I first do “static back” to relax the back muscles and let the joints open up. Then I do the Cobra, lie on my Spineworx, 6” foam roller, or “T” baseball to get the joints moving. This was very uncomfortable if not painful. The numbness in my foot was replaced with shooting pains down my leg. My P/T said this was better(!) because it was intermittent, not constant.
I also started doing 3 x 1 min Burpees and 3 x 1 min deep knee bends every day. Even though may have been a little too much for my back, since it was only 6 minutes of exercise a day, it did more good than harm. Even though walking has done me a lot of good, walking makes me stiffer. Yes it works my tonic (postural muscles) but is not at all aerobic for me. Doing some intense aerobics where I start to breath hard and sweat, my back loosened up. This has been better than decompression.
My back capacity has not increased at all. I still cannot sit any longer than I could but I feel a lot better and less foot numbness.
Yes movement at L4 / L5 can be bad in certain cases. It can be bad if you have spondylolithesis, a pars fracture, or weak muscles (note that in this case the muscles need to be fixed NOT the lack of motion) which can’t control the joint.
A lot of experts say you have to do ab work to stabilize the back and weak abs are the main cause of back pain. I really disagree with this often recited statement. I do think weak abs can be a problem in special situations such as:
1) Abs are so weak they stay chronically contracted because the nervous system will allow increased range of motion only if the muscles are strong enough to control it. Whereas strong muscles are “confident muscles” and will let go.
2) Lack of endurance. But this is only if you are active. Say you work all day lifting boxes. By the end of the day your back extensors are tired, you lose control of your lower back and hurt yourself.
3) Reaction rate. Poorly conditioned muscles cannot react quickly enough when you slip on some ice, get tackled, or trip over something. So the force goes right into the passive tissue i.e. ligaments and injury results. Then the muscles lock up to prevent further injury and even after the initial injury heals, chronic pain sets in.
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Weight Training Paul
May 7, 2009 - 7:29PM
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Re: Getting discs to heal
Hi awaq
I was working on “fusing” my spine by limiting all bending of the lower back
That sounds like trouble from the start bud if you could still oparate to a certain degree
Have you tried LG's program, I really like his stretchers and he gave me certain ones for where I have problem areas, also his opinion on whats wrong with your frame and which areas are the main problems is worth getting
Have you done any isometric endurance off a roman chair
Paul
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awaq
May 8, 2009 - 3:01PM
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Re: Getting discs to heal
Yes, but some people can be very convincing.
Lou sounds interesting but I don't want to travel. Don't know if he does phone or if that would be effective.
Dunno about Roman Chair. I like the concept and can do that a little. I can lift my torso as in 1/2 superman on a good day, but other days it herniates the disc.
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yannick35
Jun 20, 2009 - 2:43PM
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Re: Getting discs to heal
I can weight train now but with my head, no more squatting, deadlifting, dont beleive people who say its a must to do them, to get strong core muscles, they are not.
They put tremendus pressure on the disc and get only make things worst, much worst.
I go with leg press but get 2 plattes on each side which is not heavy at all but i shoot for 12 15 reps range, i do the same with all other weight training exercises.
After all makes no sense in strating weight training has i used to do lifting heavy weights this can only lead to injury.
Last month i went heavy on squats and deadlifts, bent rows the only thing i got from this also doing standing military press because i read an ******* saying they would strengthen core muscles, is a sore shoulder that i am getting treaded with prolotherapy and sore lower back and pain in hamstring.
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Gerald Jordan
Jun 20, 2009 - 10:57PM
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Re: Getting discs to heal
Hi Awaq,
I am totally drawn in by your story and appreciate your common sense and experience.
I don't wish to assume anything here, however I believe your remarkable efforts are based on mechanical corrective means and there are many. Defined, useful and left brain sounding. Other stategies could include developing the power to heal yourself including your annulus fibers. Its abstact, expansive, wisdom enough and right brain activity. Its about upregulating more of your brain especially the primitive and mid-brain in the three brain model of neurology. My favorite is chi-gong exercises that also has a long, and proven track record.
Best Wishes Mark
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yannick35
Jun 27, 2009 - 8:48PM
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Re: Getting discs to heal
After having a long talk with my medical doctor who treats me with prolotherapy he told me that yes it is possible for discs to heal, of course depending on the damage that was done and the degeneration.
In my case its very possible, along with prolotherapy to stabilize the lower back ligaments and tendons, a good glucosamine, MSM, chronoit (you know what i mean), flax oil, EFA, and collagen.
Repairing a disc does not happen over night tought it can take a minimum of 2 years to see progress, it is a very slow process, and during this time you must make sure that the lower back and spin are not compressed.
Along with prolotherapy there is confusing about using the inversion table at an angle of 30-60 degree, well my doctor told me that even if you do inversion prolo will do its job, i invert 5 minutes 1-2 times per day to make sure to get spinal decompression and do rockin motion to pump nutrients in the disc.