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jessica
Nov 13, 2008 - 5:53PM
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i have tried it all
I have been dealing with sciatica pain for 2yrs now. I have done the exersices, gone to chiropractor ( who i love) and helped alot but cannot go every day. I have had many many deep tissue massages and it still seems to not work. I have had several MRIs done and discs are fine, some arthritis in lower lumbar and bone structure is great. I force myself to walk and stretch every day. I am quite flexable but my trigger points and pain will not go away. Does anyone have any advice? I am quite frustrated with it all.
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Paul
Nov 13, 2008 - 8:17PM
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Re: i have tried it all
There are many more things out there than what you have mentioned.
The most important thing is that you are structurally sound in terms. Arthritis is overated as a pain generator....It is simply gray hair of the spine.
The deficiency in Chiro is the assumption that an adjustment can be made to alter the structure of the spine and move bones which is virtually impossible. You must remember that muscles determine where bones and nerves are and this goes to the premise that you have an imbalance that must be corrected.
LTBP is a great start. There are many other modalities as well like
Egoscue
Al Meilus Robot Therapy
to name a few.
Back injuries can be frustrating but keep looking for the right combination that will effect change in your life
Pmazzdog@aol.com
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Robin Muhr
Nov 14, 2008 - 8:25AM
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Re: i have tried it all
I've done all that and more.
I had severe SI joint dysfunction, torn ligament, arthris, slipped discs continuosuly...(PAIN!)I told myself 5 years of this and I was done.
I would go to ends of earth and try everything to heal. (I made it my quest in life) What else did I have to live for it I couldn't function and had only severe pain.
It took alot of work to get healed.
I had to find right doctors mainly the one's who worked for me were Manipulative Osteopath (I used holisitic ones and he made shoe inserts for me) mixed with changing my nutrition to organic all the way around.
Meaning: no pesticides, no hormones, no preservatives, no chemicals, no carbon monocide in my meats, distilled water, glass no cans and no aluminium (if you have to use can's I buy one's lined with enamel not polyurithans...
The hardest was doing away with sodas.
This took time to change over I started with condiments (like hetchup, mustards...) then milk and meat then slowly the rest.
Then I got chickens and I do free range organic eggs. (This helps heal hyperglycemia... through the lysine)which I was.
Also taking time to think about how I walked and sat. The chiro should tell you this. (I did chiro who kept me walking in short term but only for day or two or hour or two at most?
Also, had to take time to take care of me and not everyone else. I had to find BALANCE. This is the hardest thing to do.
I did physical therapy, prolo therapy, massage, pain specialist, surgeons, orthos, chiros, mri's, pain shots, I'm sure I missed a couple. These did not work for me. It was a journey.
I was told I would need surgeries the rest of my life and would be wheelchair bound probably for the rest of my life and if I was old I'd be dead. Since people bedridden that long would get blood clots and die.
I hope you find your healing.
Just don't give up!!! If I did I wouldn't be here now and healthy/happy.
It will change.
Robin
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jessica
Nov 14, 2008 - 12:18PM
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Re: i have tried it all
Thank you for responding. I actually have gone threw everything you talked about. Besides the robot therapy. It makes since to me because I am very tight around the hips and around front of thighs and even with orthodics it doesnt seem to help. I even have shoes for over pronating on my right side.
Thank you again.
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Paul
Nov 14, 2008 - 2:02PM
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Re: i have tried it all
Jessica-
The hip flexors and especially the illiacus and psoas are very very tight on many FTP people. Regular massage does not address this and can not get to the places the robot can.
Also have your adductors checked. I was in agony for 4.5 years. Sacral pain, ab pain, leg pain where i could not wear pants the skin was so sensitive. I am/was a power athlete with a build similar to Mike Tyson. Very muscled and thick. When i went for massages the therapists could not even touch my quads because they were like concrete.
Al and the robot got everything loose and feeling great except he noticed that my femoral artery may be compressed (hence the cold feet and leg pain that was not like sciatica)......I then went to Dr. Norman Marcus (a worldwide leading muscular specialist who also invented muscle detection devices that tell what muscles are the culprits)....HE diagnosed me as having a concrete like pectineus and adductor magnus. (in fact the pectineus tore off the bone and in its attempt to heal itself was loaded with adhesions and very short). After 22 deep injections, electro-therapy and daily excercises I am 95-100% BETTER. His website is www.usabackpain.com.
I personally spent over 100K to find a cure including $375 a week for NMT just to function. The last 2 years I could not work and for a few months could not walk more than 10 feet at a time. My back killed me.....my leg killed me....my groin....my hip....my stomach....
When the shortened muscles were lenghtened all pain went away. When muscles are involved and shortened it effects all the others in the kinetic chain and can set off a catastrophic pain situation. My situation was rather uncommon, but it shows that with persistence there is hope. Also the doctor said there would have been no way for me to stretch through these adhesions on my own.
It always felt like my right groin was locked or jammed up into me....
Keep the faith
Pmazzdog@aol.com
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dave hutchieson
Nov 14, 2008 - 2:51PM
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Re: i have tried it all
Hello Robin
That's a great story. I'm really glad you've come through this.
Everything you say about food is 100% correct.
Cancer rates in third world countries are almost non-existent [ I spent nearly thirty years working in them ].
I am sure this is because almost everything is natural. No chemicals etc. People from Okinawa, Japan have some of the lowest cancer rates in the world.
When their children move to the U.S. however, their cancer rates become the same as everyone else here within one generation.
The only thing I would caution you on is the use of shoe lifts.
The number of people who are born with one leg TRULY shorter than the other is extremely small.
Now, you may be one of them.
However, in my experience, 99.9% of all the people who are told they need lifts by chiros etc do not need them.
What happens is this:
On one side of the pelvic girdle, the iliacus muscle becomes tight.
This causes that side of the pelvis to rotate forward.
The other side does not move as most doctors think.
This is due to the fact that the pelvic bones are joined not solidly, but by a piece of flexible material called the pubic symphysis [ PS ]
http://content.answers.com/main/content/img/oxford/Oxford_Body/019852403x.pelvis.1.jpg
This allows one side of the pelvis to rotate almost independently of the other.
DO NOT LOOK AT THE FOLLOWING PHOTO IF YOU ARE SQEEMISH [ DO NOT LIKE MEDICAL PICTURES ].
http://www.me.ttu.edu/files/ortho_biomechanics/pelvis1.jpg
The previous photo shows tests being done on the pelvis to see how effective the PS is.
OK, so what does this have to do with my leg ?
What now happens is that as one side of the pelvis rotates forward [ “down” towards your feet ], the back part rotates upwards towards your head [ this is put very roughly here just for explanation ] and guess what is attached to your pelvis ?
Your leg via the femur.
So now, your femur has gone up and backwards.
Guess what the chiro/ortho sees when you lay down ?
One leg shorter than the other.
What does he do ?
He puts in a shoe lift which makes a bad situation worse.
HE IS NOW MAKING SURE THAT YOUR PELVIS WILL NOT ROTATE BACK TO ITS’ CORRECT POSITION.
MUSCLES WILL “STICK” IN THE BAD POSITION, KEEPING THE PELVIS THERE.
http://www.eorthopod.com/images/ContentImages/pm/pm_general_piriformis_inj/pm_gen_piri_anatomy01.jpg
THIS PUTS ENORMOUS STRAIN ON THE HIP JOINT, AND WITHIN TEN OR FIFTEEN YEARS – HIP REPLACMENT TIME.
IF ONLY PEOPLE KNEW WHAT TRULY CAUSES HIPS TO GO BAD.
THERE ARE TESTS WHICH CAN SHOW IF YOU REALLY HAVE A TRUE LEG LENGTH DISCREPANCY.
I WOULD ASK YOU TO GET THESE CARRIED OUT.
IF YOU DO HAVE A TRUE DISCREPANCY, LIFTS ARE THE BEST SOLUTION.
BUT IF YOU DO NOT, YOU ARE SETTING YOURSELF UP FOR SOME SERIOUS PROBLEMS DOWN THE ROAD.
If you do not have a true discrepancy, you need to get both sides of your pelvis balanced.
Good Luck
Dave Hutchieson
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jessica
Nov 14, 2008 - 5:33PM
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Re: i have tried it all
Oh wow, i think im overwhelmed with information. I will look into this. Thank you all for the great info.
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karen
Dec 10, 2008 - 3:36AM
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Re: i have tried it all
Dave is right. I was going to a chriopractor for 2 years. I really liked him. I was not getting any better but I continued to go because he was working very hard to help me. One day I woke up and decided I was waisting my money and time. I researche sort leg syndrom and the high hip. I found the cause. Go to this web site. www.nucca.org. It explains the cause, doesn't treat the symptoms. After I found a NUCCA pratcicioner and got my atlas adjusted I started to work on my muscle imbalences. Only then I got better. I was hurting for 2 years. It took 1 year to recover. I am 99% better now. & yes, like everyone else I tried EVERYTHING in the mean time.
Good luck!
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dave hutchieson
Dec 10, 2008 - 11:38AM
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Re: i have tried it all
Later on I will put a posting on regarding the Atlas vertebra [ a little bone in your neck ].
It is the most important bone in your entire body.
Nerves come from the brain in a bundle.
These nerves control everything in your body.
As the bundle moves down the spinal cord, the nerves branch off.
The bundle becomes thinner as it goes down the cord.
However, at the top of the spinal column, the bundle is thick.
Any pressure on it [ for example from the Atlas Vertebra being just a fraction off ] can cause all sorts of problems.
My wife had her socliosis reduced 75% by our chiro ONLY working on the Atlas.
I have seen over three hundred people have their serious blood pressure and cholesterol levels reduced to normal by having their Atlas worked on.
I won't go into all the details now, but basically organs do not act on their own. They need signals from the brain to tell them what to do. If those signals become reduced and/or corrupted, the organs will do thye wrong things. e.g. tell the heart to beat faster etc.
Even if you have no back pain, getting your Atlas checked out is a good thing to do.
Dave Hutchieson
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Jessica
Dec 10, 2008 - 2:22PM
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Re: i have tried it all
Karen, Thank you for the advice. I actually have been seen several times for my atlas. Have a wonderful Dr. here in Medford OR, who is certified. ( made sure of that and other things) I have been using a baseball on my lower back to rub out the knots and then using a Theraputic foam roll on my thighs, quads, and hips. This has been helping me alot and for 3 days now i have been pain free from the burning going down my legs. Unfortunately I am low on funds and trying my best to do what i can. I have not been to Chiro for about 2 months now, trying to wing myself. So far Im ok. This site has helped me out so much and I am very grateful for what you guys do.
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karen
Dec 11, 2008 - 1:12AM
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Re: i have tried it all
I hope you can find the money. During the year it took me to recover I had to quite my job because of the pain. Yet, I went into debt paying for my NUCCA practitioner, Coorective exercise specialist, ND & Accupunctist. I am backt to work now and slowly getting out of debt. (I spent 2x's what I was making on treatments). Yet I would do it all again because it gave me my life back. You can't really put a price on your health. Unfortunatly, insurance doesn't cover all the things it should. But I belive in doing what you need to do to get better. It takes a long time to recover but I know that it's possible. Don't give up on NUCCA. Even if you just go once a month. You need to make sure your Atlas is holding. It's amazing to me the difference a Proper Atlas adjustment can make.
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rose byron
Dec 11, 2008 - 7:15PM
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Re: i have tried it all
LOOKS LIKE MY SEARCH HAS'NT STOPPED. I HAD A TUBAL LIGATION (TUBES TIED )ON 23/06/08. SINCE THAT OP I HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO SIT ON A CHAIR WITH OUT PAIN IN MY GROIN. XRAYS ALL OK,VEIN ON OVERIES ULTRASOUNDS ALL OK, 2 DOCTORS DIAGNOSED ME WITH A FEMORAL HERNIA SINCE OPERATION. I HAVE JUST COME OUT OF SURGERY THIS WEEK AND NO FEMORAL HERNIA WAS FOUND. TRYING SO HARD TO HOLD IT TOGETHER AND GET OVER THIS OP AGAIN AND ALL THE EXTRA PAIN IT HAS CAUSED. BEEN TO CHIROS OVER THE YEARS AND THEY HAVE HELPED MINOR PROBLEMS BUT NOT THIS. MY LAST MRI RESULTS SHOW I HAVE L5/S1 HYPO & DEGENERATIVE FACET JOINTS WITH A RESULTANT GRADE ONE DEGEN L5/S1 SPONDYLOLISTHESIS. MATERIAL IS DISPLACING AND POSSIBLE IRRATING THE LEFT S1 NERVE ROOT AS IT BUDS FROM THE THECAL SAC. SPINAL FUSION HAS BEEN SUGGESTED BUT NOT SURE IF IT WILL HELP UNTIL THEY HAVE OPERERATED. YEHAAR ANOTHER DEAD END. MY INVERSION TABLE HELPS BUT I CANT US IT NOW UNTIL MY OPERATION WOUNDS HAVE HEALED. I TAKE EXTREME BACK PAIN HERBAL TABLETS AND BEFORE THIS LAST OP THEY REALLY HELPED. BUT I AM NOW BACK ON THE PAIN KILLERS AND WISHING I WAS PREGNANT AND NOT IN PAIN AND COULD SIT DOWN LIKE NORMAL PEOPLE. LETS HOPE FOR A BETTER NEW YEAR FOR US ALL.
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karen
Dec 14, 2008 - 12:49AM
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Re: i have tried it all
Rose,
Absoultly do not have a spinal fusion! It will not help. (in my opinion) Look around at all the other people on this website that have had that surgary and are still in pain. This is an emabarrasing question but do you still have your uterous? Have you been to a urogynacologist? I had a lot of pain after my son was born. I was mis-diagnosed for one full year until I went to a urogynacologist and he sent me to pelvic floor physical thearapy. (yes, it's what you think it is) But that's the only thing that finally helped.
Also, I'm courius to know if you've had your kidneys checked out... Sometimes what seems like your back is not your back. I suggest checking your Atlas too. Listen to the guys running this website. They know what they are talking about in terms of muscle inbalences. I believe if you fix the muscle inbalences you can get better. If the LTBP system is not working for you then maybe try a chek praticioner. (corrective exercise specialist) That and my NUCCA pracitioner really saved me.
I'm sorry that you are not able to have a baby right now. I have one son and I long to have another child. Even though my back is better I don't think it would be very smart of me to go through a pregnancy again. So, I need to be happy whith the blessings that I have. Just wanted you to know that I understand your pain.
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dave hutchieson
Dec 14, 2008 - 2:00PM
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Re: i have tried it all
Rose
Karen has brought up a good point about pelvic floor muscles.
These muscles are very important for women and some physical and massage therapists know how to work on them.
To get a quick check of whether they know what they are talking about, ask them if they have had experience working with levator and obturator muscles.
Drop me a private e-mail and I'll send you some more information.
Dave Hutchieson
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Beth Morton
Mar 5, 2009 - 8:07PM
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Re: i have tried it all
Have you tried swimming?
Beth
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Paul
Mar 5, 2009 - 10:22PM
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Re: i have tried it all
Call Lou Gross....he will help you over the phone
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awaq
Mar 11, 2009 - 10:36PM
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Re: i have tried it all
Dave re: short leg.
My left leg is "short" but my right H-F are really tight and I have a lot of pain in the right hip. Also my right quadratus lumborum is tight so my back shifts to the right. Doc thinks I tore the cartilage in the right hip and am always pulling the gracilis in the right groin ( I think, it's hard to know for sure). The doc thinks it's in the bone itself.
From what you wrote my right, not left leg, should be the short one?
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Demp
Mar 14, 2009 - 6:03PM
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Re: i have tried it all
I had about the same thing you described for 30 years. Then I found this device called an A-Tension-Getter. I know they got a website, but not sure of the name. Just google "A-Tension-Getter" and you should find it.
HTH.
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karen
Mar 15, 2009 - 2:55AM
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Re: i have tried it all
But have you tried NUCCA?
Your leg is not short. Unless you've had a leg lenth test scan there is no way to prove that you have a functional short leg. Did you have an x-ray done of your legs while you were lieing down? If you did then you know for sure wheater or not you have a short leg and also you will know the leg lenght difference. I'm not talking about lying to the table while the doctor looks at your ankles. That is not an accurate test. If you hip is high, if you SI joint is stuck, if you happen to be a little shifted on the table that test will not be accurate. An actual x-ray - lying down is the only way to know for sure because the technician will acutally measure the bone with a tape measure. They are not guessing..
As I previously stated above, I belive your atlas is off. All they symptoms you are discribing are simply symptoms of the underlieing problem. Unless you properly treat the cause you will never find a cure. Please look into NUCCA practitioners, couple that with a corrective exercise specialist or do the LTBP system. You will get better.
I did.
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Jeff
Mar 15, 2009 - 1:12PM
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Re: i have tried it all
Ive had 2 leg lenth exams and both were standing barefoot...(I dont think lying down would be the ay to go)....level floor...and they use a plumb line behind you.....then they take the xray..........then using drafting techniques they do measurements on the sacrum and the tops of the leg bones.....from the straight plumb line to each land mark...then they give you what your leg length difference is and also how much and what side your sacrum is downtilted on
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Keisha L.
Mar 16, 2009 - 10:52AM
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Re: Re: i have tried it all
Karen, I've been doing NUCCA since June and I can't seem to get to 1x a week, instead of 2x. I lose the adjustment within maybe 4-5 days. It works (pain seriously decreases and no more daily headaches), that's for sure... but I can't keep paying all the money and I'm wondering what I can do to help myself stay "straight."
Any words of advice?
Thank you!
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awaq
Apr 26, 2009 - 12:54AM
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Re: i have tried it all
That's a good point Dave. According to Jim Johnson in "The Multifidus Back Pain Solution" the following have been shown NOT to be associated with back pain:
1) How much you weigh.
2) How tall you are.
3) Having one leg longer than the other.
4) Having scoliosis (except in back curves of 80 degrees or more).
5) The curve of your lower back (doesn't matter if it's flat or you have an increased curve).
Probably these faults are a good indicator of faulty muscle usage. So the key is to fix the muscles and worry less about minor structural abnormalities.
Another quote:
"Normal people have few, if any electromyographic abnormalities in their low backs muscles."
Pete Egoscue said the same thing:
"Most active back pain is the result of ongoing muscular action (and/or inaction). Put a stop to that dysfunctional nondesign muscular activity, and the pain will subside. I have seen it happen literally thousands of times."
and Brian Hainline M.D.:
" Herniated and degenerative lumbar discs should NOT cause chronic, essentially constant pain. Surgery for such individuals usually is not only disappointing, but may lead to a marked WORSENING of preoperative pain."
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Weight Training Paul
Apr 27, 2009 - 6:43PM
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Re: i have tried it all
Hi awaq
Yes I agree with those guys
Having one leg longer or shorter than the other could cause issues though down the line as it's probably the result of a dysfunctial hip due to muscle imbalances, wouldn't you say
Some interesting posts from you mate
For me the best things I've done are
Egoscue
Lou gross program
now robot technology, I'll put more results up from the robot in a few weeks,
How is your back doing
Paul
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awaq
Apr 27, 2009 - 11:24PM
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Re: i have tried it all
Paul, I'm doing a little better, thanks. Keep us up to date on your surgery. Sounds like the robot is good but not for everything.
I've wanted to post a new thread on "Interesting back information" but afraid I clutter up this board too much as it is.
I do have a couple more interesting quote from that Multifidus book:
1) "You can have pressure on a spinal nerve root (caused by a disc, for example) and have no pain whatsoever. A normal nerve that is compressed will not produce pain. The nerve has to bee irritated or inflamed first."
2) "Neurological sign.... IS decreased reflexes."
3) 1993 study by Lindgren of 9 patients with vertebrae that moved excessively as people bent forwards and backwards...noted that the multifidus that were working improperly were, in most cases, at the same level as the vertebrae with excessive motion (try THAT correlation and people with disc herniation!)
" After an exercise program that included the multifidus ....the abnormal EMG's practically disappeared. Interestingly though, excessive vertebral motion was UNCHANGED despite 8 of 9 patients having pain free movement of the spine".
Another testimonial to work the muscles and ignore the x-rays, etc.
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Weight Training Paul
Apr 28, 2009 - 1:30PM
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Re: i have tried it all
Hi awaq
That's the other Paul with the surgery bud
Yeah theres a lot info on multifidus and trans, I found it a little difficult to feel I was helping these muscles though, its hard to understand some of it
You may as well do the new thread if you want, I think LTBP lads would be ok
Cheers
Paul
lACI
Apr 29, 2009 - 11:54AM
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Re: i have tried it all
Im sorry to hear you are still in so much pain after so many things- I to have been along time sufferer ( a year now) BUT I did find relief praise God- I tried the drz at My chiro office, I dont know if You might be a candidate but it has been a God send for Me, that along with strength training & I finally see the light at the end of the tunnel! I am feeling better the last few weeks than I have in a year of other treatments so just wanted to share My success and I pray You get well soon! God Bless